NonTrads: Women Following a non-Traditional Path in Pursuit of a Technical Degree and Career

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Panelists: Susan Frank (Farmingdale State College), Marie Rosenblatt (University at Albany), Heather McCalley (University of Alabama at Birmingham), Jessica Lowell (Northeastern University), Jennifer Walter (Vassar College), Anastasia (Staci) Burke (Pace University), Marie Lluberes (University of Puerto Rico, Mayagüez), Gerardine (Geri) Lamble (Santa Clara University)

nonTrads, coined by the founders of the nonTrads group, describes women overcoming obstacles following a non-traditional path to their goals in the computer science profession. These include raising a family, switching careers, and unexpected catastrophic events. The nonTrads group provides a forum for moral support and a means for sharing resources helpful to others facing such challenges. Our goal for GHC2009 is to solidify the nonTrad community.

nonTrads homepage

nonTrads BoF Handout Material and Presentation Slides

OUR STORIES

Susan Frank I am currently a Visiting Professor at Farmingdale State College. I worked in the defense industry as a computer scientist for five years before becoming a stayhome mom. After ten years I started as a part-time master’s student in the Computer Science Department at Stony Brook University, then entered the full-time Ph.D. program in the Visualization Lab there. In addition to a very intense research load, the demands of the program included many service hours (reviewing papers, demonstrating the group’s research, conferences, etc.) Although my husband is very supportive, the demands of his job has kept his role in the chauffeuring and everyday care of our five kids to a minimum. In addition, I had to forego applying to many great internships and turn down an amazing full-time job offer upon graduating in order to stay within 100 miles of his job. Among other struggles I think that isolation is the most difficult challenge in my graduate work. I felt isolated most of the time as a full-time PhD student, even though I worked in a lab with dozens of people. Lack of time makes it difficult to form the friendships that are helpful to form study groups and finding project partners. Whatever time I could squeeze out of my demanding life had to be used on studying or research. The impact of my graduate work was that it effectively defined my family. This is more of a good thing than bad. My math and technical skills have enabled me to help my kids with their advanced courses. They have never been intimidated by computers, and in fact have become a valuable resource of information to me. My three oldest boys have graduated with degrees in engineering and computer science, have excellent jobs, and plan to continue into graduate work. Being a nonTrad tends to amplify the problems that other people face during their technical careers. The definition of women’s roles in our various cultures lead to the basic problem or a lack of time. There are so many ways that we can help each other technically through our LinkedIn and Facebook groups and through a nonTrads website. You are welcome to join the former two, and to visit the latter once it is up and running.

Marie Rosenblatt I recently completed my Bachelor’s degree in computer science while working full-time. Divorced, with three kids and real-life responsibilities, resources to fund my education were limited, so I elected to study full-time in order to qualify for financial aid and grants. Between the demands of life, work, the course load, and the curriculum, I was extremely apprehensive, and not sure at all I would manage. Last year at GHC, I found there are many of us who, for one reason or another, are not traditional students, struggling - and overcoming! - similar challenges. I am very interested in changing industry’s view of recently graduated, mature nonTrads. I add ”mature” because not all nonTrads are returning students. I think there are more advantages than disadvantages to hiring a mature recent graduate. Because of our maturity, we tend to ’have both feet on the ground’, know ourselves well and what we want out of life. We have a currently demonstrated ability to multitask, juggle whatever life piles on, and handle diverse responsibilities simultaneously. There is likely less risk of us envisioning changing employers every 2-3 years to ’see what else is out there’, or climb the ladder of success, preferring instead to progress from within. While most mature employees have these advantageous qualities, we come with the benefit of being recent graduates, knowledgeable and skilled in the latest technology. What a catch! One of the difficulties I experienced, due to my lack of flexibility, was scheduling classes. I found myself squeezing in 5 - 6 classes a semester, and missing out on the electives I really would have liked to take. I made friends with one assertive young woman who was able to get the dept to agree to accept prerequisite classes out of order.

Heather McCalley After earning a degree in Economics in 1988 from Duke University, I worked for seven years in banking as a commercial lender. Then came love, then came marriage, then came two girls in baby carriages! So I was a stay-at-home mom for several years and had a few part-time jobs–some paying, some volunteer–including work as editor of two Junior League publications, serving on the board of the local Girl Scout council and as a troop leader, and directing the Mercedes Kids Marathon in Birmingham, Alabama. As my daughters reached middle school, I started thinking about the new career that I would like to have by the time they graduate from high school. This led me to the computer science department at the University of Alabama at Birmingham. Starting in fall 2006, I have taken many pre-requisite undergraduate courses, and I finally started the Master’s degree program this fall. Challenge: Finding opportunities when relocation is not an option Because of my husband’s job and our family’s ties to the area, we do not want to move anytime soon. So many of the best internships seem to require a stint in New Mexico or someplace that would otherwise seem fabulous. Mitigating Factors: I found a local internship that allowed me to work part-time one semester in desktop support for Southern Progress, publisher of Cooking Light and other magazines. Through this I learned a lot about the practical side of working with computers. I have also worked parttime in the somewhat tedious job of visually verifying phishing websites for the FBI’s online database Digital Phish- Net. From this I learned quite a bit about phishing, formed stronger ties with the director of UAB Computer Forensics, and hope to turn some of my experience into a scholarly paper. In general I have kept an open mind about what I may be best suited for and have learned to appreciate the value of these hands-on experiences. Challenge: Impact on Families My husband has a fulltime, salaried position where he works from about 8am to 6pm every weekday. My two girls (9th and 7th grades) have their own busy lives, with advanced classes and after-school sports. I want to be available for them during the traditional after-school hours to help with homework and with transporting them to golf and soccer. (Plus, don’t forget dinner for four.) Mitigating Factors: My husband does not have to work overtime, travel, or weekends, and he is always very supportive, pitching in with meals, driving to sports practices and events when he can, and generally not complaining when the house needs cleaning. Also, I feel that I am setting a great example for my kids by demonstrating a lifelong love for learning and by setting and achieving personal goals.

Jessica Lowell I am currently an MS student at Northeastern University, and employed full-time in computer science. I live with my fiance, a technical writer, in the Boston area. I started my BS at MIT as a pre-med in 2003, and had decided by the end of my freshman year that I didn’t want to go to medical school after all. But I didn’t know what I wanted to do instead, so I stayed in my original department, Brain & Cognitive Sciences, thinking that perhaps I would go to grad school in neuroscience or psychology. I became interested in computer science while doing computational neuroscience work late in my undergraduate career. After I graduated in 2007, I got an entry-level job as a software engineer of intelligent systems. I had originally intended to spend a couple of years in my job and then go on to a neuroscience PhD program, but as I spent more time doing the work and reading journals, I realized that I was enjoying computer science more and more. I switched to a junior-level scientist position at my company, and took computer science classes at Tufts University through a post-baccalaureate program. I also became involved in the professional community, serving as president of the Tufts ACM-W chapter, and as the IEEEUSA Graduates of the Last Decade representative to the Precollege Education Committee, and becoming active in the newly-founded IEEE Women in Engineering Boston chapter. I got into the Northeastern MS program with a scholarship offer, and am in my first semester there. I hope to eventually go on to a PhD program. When I first started taking classes while employed fulltime, I found myself frustrated with the logistical and other challenges of being both a student and a full-time employee. I attended last year’s GHC with a number of other Tufts students, and, along with it, the luncheon for GHC scholarship winners. When we split up into interest groups after the main part of the luncheon, I suggested a group for non-traditional students, because I wanted to talk to others in similar positions to mine.

Jenny Walter After earning a BA in geology in 1981 from the University of Minnesota, Morris (UMM), and a brief stint pursuing an MS (that I never completed) in micropaleontology at the University of Minnesota, Duluth (UMD), I worked for ten years as a User Services Specialist in the Computing Services Department at UMM. During those ten years, I earned a BA in computer science. Even though I was not particularly fond of computer science when I started the degree in 1984, my boss agreed to give me time off from work if I pursued a degree that improved my job skills. As I progressed in the major and particularly when I took my first courses analyzing algorithms and studying the theory of computer science, I began to be very interested in computer science. In the early 1990’s, my only female professor at UMM started a social group for female students in computer science and I once again became interested in the prospect of graduate school. In 1992, when I was close to finishing a BA in computer science, I was encouraged to apply for national fellowships. I applied and was discouraged when two other students in the CS department at UMM received six-year fellowships from the National Physical Sciences Consortium and I did not. So I stayed at the job (which was looking more like a dead-end than ever before) for another year. The next year I applied for the same fellowships and this time I was successful. So I started interviewing graduate schools and I ended up at Texas A&M University (TAMU). I completed my PhD in computer science at TAMU in 2000 and I am currently Associate Professor and Chair of the Computer Science Department at Vassar College. It was a long road, but I feel like I’m living my dream. Challenge: Leaving behind an established life to start another, totally unknown one At the time I decided to leave my job, I was married but had no children. The prospect of having a long-distance relationship contributed to marital problems that ended in our divorce. So I was free to go anywhere and at the same time scared to death because I had a bad case of ”the imposter syndrome.” Mitigating Factors: Having a fellowship enabled me to pick and choose among graduate schools and I chose TAMU because of the supportive group of female faculty I met while visiting there. Because I felt that everything had been handed to me on a silver platter, I figured I would need such a support group to survive graduate school. Looking back, I feel it was a wise choice.

Anastasia Burke I have to admit that I have never been a traditional student. I have been working since the eighth grade. I worked two jobs all through my Computer Science studies at Fordham University. In 1990, I started my career in IT. I worked for ten years in the field, starting out as a computer specialist and graduating to Network Administration. During my ten years, I also wrote a few applications using MS Access and SQL, performed systems analysis and acted as a project manager. I loved this field because I had the flexibility to work for vastly diverse companies and projects. In 2001, I gave birth to my twins and for very personal reasons, always knew I wanted to be a stay-at-home mom. It was a major adjustment for me to not be in an environment where I was solving problems for my peers. In 2002, I gave birth to my third son. During my time as a stay-at-home mom, I volunteered at my children’s school and worked part-time on a number of projects that were not computer related. Although I enjoyed the many facets of everything I was trying, I was missing my first love - computing. In 2006, I spent many sleepless nights, trying to decide how I could get back into the field. I knew that I needed to update my education and decided to pursue a Master’s Degree. I looked at the CSIS Department’s website of Pace University - a private college in NY - and found that the classes they offered were current with today’s technology. This was not the same computer science program that we were offered in the ’80’s. Being a family of five living on one salary, I knew that financing my education would be a challenge. I started to pursue a job in the university until the Associate Dean recommended that I look into a Graduate Assistantship. Everything moved so fast from there. That was in December and in January of 2007, I was about to enter school again after 17 years. I was also about to stand up and teach an A+ Certification class after being out of the field completely for 6 years. I was filled with fear and tempted to quit! Thankfully, I have a very supportive husband and friends that know me well and encouraged not to. The first semester was the most difficult, but I also found myself accepting a part-time instructor position for the Pace Computer Learning Center. This is my last semester, and I am finding it to be very challenging. The past year, we have moved twice, the second time at the beginning of this semester. I have worked hard to make my children feel safe and not to realize the stress that the move has put on our family. I would like to address: Overcoming fears involved with believing that you are worthy of an assistantship or a position you have been offered.

Geri Lamble I am currently a PhD student at Santa Clara University on leave to travel with our national tennis player children. I originally graduated with a PE degree in 1981 from San Jose State University. Living in the heart of Silicon Valley I entered the electronics industry and re-entered college immediately starting a technical career path. After ten years of working in Silicon Valley, I exited the electronics workforce as a Project Lead at Sun Microsystems. Relocating to Phoenix, in support of my husband’s career, we started a family. Returning to the bay area after five years I enrolled in Santa Clara University’s engineering program. It was there that I culminated my masters degree in Computer Engineering. Staying on at Santa Clara, I moved right into my Ph.D. program of study. The first three years of my PhD program went fairly smoothly for having two young children. Santa Clara has an ”early-bird” program which allowed me to attend courses at 7am. Things really changed when our daughter turned 8 years old as she entered national prominence for her tennis prowess. Her 7 year old brother followed. About this same time my husband moved into international sales. For the next ten years I juggled on again off again study with raising our 2 children and committing to supporting their tennis development. Despite the disruption I have yet to give up on my dream of obtaining my PhD. I have had several false starts on PhD topics allowing family commitments to derail my path. Among the greatest obstacle in my pursuit has by far been the loneliness. With the dedicated commitment to two challenging feats of obtaining a PhD and raising young children I found little room to cultivate personal support. Additionally with my husband being in international sales, I often find myself a single parent. It was not until meeting the nonTrads that I experienced the opportunity of gaining much needed support. This support has provided both confidence and lessened the loneliness for me. These benefits in turn have helped reignite my forward momentum in my technical pursuits. Keeping up to date with the ever changing computer field. A few measures that have really helped to keep me up to date have included enrolling in courses at local community colleges as well as subscribing and engaging in technical email forums such as SWE and ACM. Both of these measures seemed to work in seamlessly with the co commitment of family demands while allowing me to be involved in the changing face of our field. Now adding the connection with the nonTrads the personal support that had been lacking is also coming into place. Coming from an engaged technical background the transition into stay-at-home parenting was greatly facilitated by keeping involved technically both thru my studies and thru sustained technical contacts. There has been a great sense of personal pride in honoring the pursuits important to me without unduly compromising our growth experiences as a family unit. It was a personal choice to take on the extraordinary challenges and it is very satisfying to have honored trying to provide a full life to all of us involved in our family. I have no regrets. I wish that I would have known the nonTrads sooner. I am most grateful to know them now.

Marie Lluberes I earned my BS in Civil Engineering 22 years ago. Being an immigrant with no network to help in the daily tasks involved in raising children and home duties, made me choose to become a stay-home mom after working for a few years. About 12 years later, now as a single mother, I decided to pursue a graduate degree. This was mostly inspired by the fact of have worked as a high school math teacher. As my background was in Civil Engineering, I would have to take a few undergraduate courses to be admitted to graduate school. At the final moment, instead of Math I chose Computer Science, a secret love of mine since my undergrad time Leaving a dozen of problems behind, everyday in my way to classroom I asked myself ”What are you doing? Why don’t you go and get a job? Your time for doing this is way over!” Although it was very scary to find myself in a room full of people in their early 20 when I was almost 40, soon I found out that they were the ones scared about me. I started to grow a confidence and a responsibility because without being that my purpose, I became a source of certain admiration even for those who are suppose to admire you the least: my two teen daughters. I have to say that one day I discovered that I became a source of inspiration and pride for them, and that, my dears, is my best reward. After a couple of years, I fulfilled the requirements and I was admitted to a PhD program in Computing and Information Sciences and Engineering (CISE). That is when truly challenges started. The distance from the only campus that provides this degree to my home impose me such long hours of driving (about 6 hours) that I had to decide to live close to campus for a few days of the week and ask the father of my teen kids to look after them 2 or 3 days a week. Attending GHC on 2007 made me realize that I’m not the only one in this path. Although I have to be grateful to many people, most of them professors and administrators that understand my non-tradness, it isn’t easy for a woman my age and formation to ask understanding. Industry and Academy have to realize that we are not longer an exception, the isolated case of a struggling student with kids, but a growing population to be taken on account in the design and offering. Funding opportunities abound encouraging minorities to this field, yet non-trads, as a minority, are ignored when asked to fulfill with the same requirements that traditional students in order to be funded regarding scheduling and academic load. We are here to grow a conscience, and to invite you to grow it with us.

QUESTIONS

1. How can we help each other to feel less isolated? (Susan)

2. What are some practical means by which we can help each other in finding resources to reduce time wasted, improve our technical knowledge, and find programs intended to increase the success of women is computing? (Susan)

3. Beyond GHC 2009, how do we get the word out, especially to large, reputable companies with specific hiring processes, that mature nonTrads, rather than being skipped over or moved to the bottom of the list, should be their first choice in hiring! (Marie)

4. Solutions to taking necessary or desirable courses without extending the timeframe until graduation. (Marie)

5. How can we change attitudes of our peers and industry about not being educated in computer science first? (Jessica)

6. Are there some novel approaches to finding internships and, later, employment opportunities that do not require relocation? (Heather)

7. How have others juggled classes and research with family obligations? (Heather)

8. How can we make computer science academia and industry a friendlier place for all women? (Jenny)

9. What are the hurdles faced when a person leaves an established career to return to school in mid-life? What are the problems faced when a person is looking for a job in mid-life, after completing a graduate degree? (Jenny, Staci)

10. Overcoming fears involved with believing that you are worthy of an assistantship or a position you have been offered. (Staci)

11. The value that living full lives and overcoming extraordinary challenges has brought. (Geri)

12. Funding and laws that assist nonTrads. (Marie Lluberes)

13. Immigrant challenges; having no local family and friends network and English as a second language. (Marie Lluberes)

Liz Kiewiet, GHC 2009 Live Notetaker. I also blog on the official Grace Hopper blog at http://ghcbloggers.blogspot.com

NonTrads are a group of women who believe anything is possible. They really want to do what they really love, and won't let anything get in their way. This includes raising families, changing careers, or going back into the workforce.

DISCUSSION OVERVIEW

1.) Overview of each person's biography and what two issues each wanted to talk about
Maria Lluberes was not able to come
2.) Open floor up to questions/sharing experiences

GROUP QUESTIONS

  • I'm 50 and I just started a master's program. There's two things that occured to me: why are we non traditionals? Not everyone here is a mother, but one of the main reasons for leaving the career path is to be a mother. Motherhood is the oldest professional in the world...what is the matter with our world, that we can't get on and off for one reason?

We should create a business that caters to women who want to be able to move on and off the career path. It would make a great business. If anyone wants to develop an idea like this, come contact me!

  • I have a little girl that will turn 2 in December. Just having a child doesn't necessarily mean you have to leave school. It's not impossible. You don't have to be just one role, it is possible to be both roles with some time management.
  • I am a non-traditional undergrad student. Life can bring you on a funny path. Don't have a child yet, but I certainly feel the pressure of it due to my age. I plan on going to graduate, doc and post doc. I think something about being a Non-Trad is being proud about it! I feel bad for the freshmen/other people who are always just rushing through. They don't care about what's in front of them, passing, and getting on with their life. You've got at least another 40 or 60 more years in front of you!
    • This group is great because there is a maturity level in our group...we want to learn and love to learn. We wouldn't be in school again if that wasn't the case!
    • We were talking about the difference between mature and younger students is that young kids who don't have as much of a drive can't handle multi-tasking.
  • You all talk about the isolation factor. How many of you actually go on campus? I do all my classes online...I have real isolation. My support system is my husband and he watches me self-impload on a regular basis. I don't have anyone to turn to because he doesn't know how to program in Java. One way I would recommend a system is either e-mail loops or message boards. One thing we have with our ACM-W chapter that was set up in our school is message boards in our named network. I don't know if that's something that can badded to the website? I know what real isolation is.
    • SYSTERS!
    • Facebook group!
  • Sheila from Google...my biggest secret at work is probably that my major is in accounting and I'm from SUNY Buffalo. So I'm curious as to what your thought process was as to getting a master's degree in a technical area versus just moving around and getting more work experience?
    • It gives me the flexibility to help my kids, drive them to soccer, do carpool. If I had a real job I wouldn't be able to do that...but yeah I kinda feel like another path would have just done a series of part time jobs (but it wasn't going to really get me anywhere)
    • What motivated me to go back to school instead of just getting work experience...the company I work in is fairly research oriented. Only having an undergraduate degree can really limit you in that area. If I wanted to move up in the research world, there would always be major gaps in my computer science background, so that's what motivated me. Once I finished the part time master's I wanted to finish the PhD, so I can be a PI.
    • What motivated me was that men were getting a higher salary in the same job as me.
  • I consider myself non-traditional because I grew up in a predominantly black neighborhood and now I'm in a master's program in one of the top ten schools in the nation. One of the issues that I'm facing is with adjusting with other cultures...one of my classmates asked if I spoke regular English because I spoke with a southern accent. My first question is how do you adjust to other classmates. My second question is I'm going to graduate in May..there's a tendency of women not knowing how much their worth - is there any advice on how to stand your ground?
    • Job office at College should have average data on salaries in jobs. You should try to find that kind of information from Carnegie Mellon about graduating students in your class...
    • You will find out when you start interviewing as your background is very unique and that will add to whatever situation you're in. Companies look for diverse backgrounds. They might not be accepting you much at C.M., but you'll find more accepting but perhaps different problems once you get out into industry.
    • There's some people you won't be able to change. As long as you're always working very hard, and keep a positive attitude...people are going to be perceptive to that. They're going to react more pleasantly to that.
    • You wouldn't be here if you didn't belong, so if you've made it this far, you certainly a Non-Trad because you've overcome all these obstacles! Just remember that...
  • I'm a non-Trad because I have a severe learning disability. I'm lucky to have gotten as far as I am...I'm a master's student and I want to get my PhD, but I have issues with reading and writing. How do you go about receiving accomodations and making it work?
    • Remember you have lots of examples up here...it may take you longer than 4 years but that's ok if that's your passion!
    • Your school should have a disabilities service office and they may be able to provide resources to you. Also, everyone comes to understand their own coping mechanisms over time. It's important to recognize your limitations and try to figure out a way around them. There may be doors that closed, but you can find a way to take the back door, or pick the lock, or climb through the window.


Liz Kiewiet, GHC 2009 Live Notetaker. I also blog on the official Grace Hopper blog at http://ghcbloggers.blogspot.com

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